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Censorship Your Rights Online

Internet Censorship In Spain 32

Posted by timothy from the hearts-and-minds-and-browsers dept.
An anonymous reader writes "I thought it only happened in China or Arabia Saudi... but it also happens in Spain: spanish government has ordered all the ISP in the country to block the web of Batasuna which is hosted outside Spain. Batasuna is a political party from the Basque Country (similar to Sinn Feinn in Ireland) and has been recently illegalized in a very controversial decision. I can't access their web right now. Luckily, proxies come to rescue me (for instance http://anon.free.anonymizer.com/http://www.batasun a.org/g_index.htm. There are also some mirrors which are being opened in other countries and haven't been blocked yet."
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Internet Censorship In Spain More

Internet Censorship In Spain

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  • Stories that belong to special sections (YRO, ask slashdot, Apache, etc) tend to have way fewer responses, because of the way these stories are semi-hidden from most users by default (they don't seem to appear in the main page, just in the section boxes). C'mon slashdot, don't turn the special sections into a secret.

    Back on topic, this kind of reminds me of China vs Falun Gong - can anybody fill us in on the details? Specifically, what they believe in (not just what the web site says ; there's sometimes a big difference, see KKK) and why they have been illegalized?
    • As a portuguese person, I live some 200 miles from spain and can more or less understand spanish.
      It's odd to me that you american fellows are not well informed about what goes on here in Europe, but Spain has an awful terrorist problem.
      First you have to understand that there is no "spain" country per se. Spain is merely a collection of kingdoms that have been subdued by the kingdom of Castilla. The only ones who have managed to fend off their attacks throughout 1000 years of history have been us, the Portuguese, the only remaining independent country in the Iberian Penninsula, and even so, they are occupying a portion of our land called Olivença which they have colonized so no one there is truly portuguese anymore.
      There isn't a spanish language or a spanish people either. There are 3 or 4 different languages for the different kingdoms.
      This means that the peoples of the Iberian Penninsula have managed to maintain a certain cultural identity throughout this long history of Castillian domination. In Galicia, the spanish kingdom to the north of our country, there have been protests claiming that they want to integrate with us, since their language and culture is more similar to ours, and they are a natural extension of our territory, since they occupy the strip of land between our northern border and the northern sea.
      In Pais Vasco, however, the Basque protests are all but peaceful. They have a very different language and culture from all of us. It does not even derive from Latin. They are a separate people, which they have been throughout history, their territory is split between France and Spain, and no one cares about them. I think it is obvious that they more than deserve their freedom, although I cannot support their actions.
      You see, some of the Basques have formed a terrorist organization called ETA which has commited numerous atrocities throughout the past few decades. Many important people have been assassinated, numerous bombs have been planted, injuring innocent bystanders.
      Batasuna is an independentist left-wing party aiming to promote the freeing of the Basque people and territory from their Castillian opressors.
      A link between the party and the terrorist organization has never been established, their site does not promote or even mention ETA or any form of violence, so it is terribly anti-constitutional to illegalize the party and block their website.
      I am amazed that I cannot reach the website without the anonymizer link, since I don't live in Spain. Would this mean that our government secretly agreed to block it as well? I find it highly unlikely.
      If you want more information about spanish events there is an excellent newspaper at http://www.elpais.es [elpais.es] (use the fish).
      • .. unable to access their site. I'm in Lisbon, and I can't access it either... Very strange. I can only guess that our ISPs are using spanish nodes to serve the pages, and getting blocked in the process. Does that mean that the spanish government effectively controls what we see or don't see?

        Great. And here I was thinking we were only being invaded phisically...
      • The 1978 Spanish Constitution [igsap.map.es] establishes that Spain is a unique nation divided in separate Autonomous Communities, which are roughly like US states. We have just left a totalitarian regime that denied traditional cultural identities of the historical regions, bu the new regime is designed to favour those identities.

        The Communities have wide rights of self-goverment, including:

        • land management, urbanism and housing
        • public works
        • transports
        • culture preservation
        • public health
        • tourism
        Meanwhile, the nation reserves for itself competences in:
        • alienage and asylum rights
        • defense and public security
        • civil and work laws
        • currency
        • foreign offices
        • national statistics and referendums
        Read the Preamble and Part VIII for details.
      • "Many important people have been assassinated, numerous bombs have been planted, injuring innocent bystanders."

        Hey! There's not such thing as "important" and "unimportant" people (unless like ETA, you're interested in "eliminating" "important" people).

        By the way, ETA has actually KILLED a whole lot of innocent bystanders with their bombs and shit for years (I lived in Spain for 27 years and they're always in the news, which is anyway what they want).

        I liked very much your post, anyway.

        Cheers,

        Alex

      • Do you think you could argue that Spain's EU membership makes independence for the various old kingdoms in Europe irrelevant? After all, the EU appears to be a guarantee against discrimination, since the lessened importance of borders and national governments would even the odds between different groups within a country?

        That being said, I think it is cowardice of the EU not to interfere in some manner in the Batasuna case.
    • The solution is to properly train the slashdot users to read the other sections.
      They are listed through all pages on the left, and on the right there is a bar that shows a semi random section and the top stories.

      I think that is good enough, people who don't bother to learn more about slashdot don't get the full benefit. Those who do learn, get more.

      Also there is a lot less noise on the less obvious articles.

  • Not all Spanish ISPs and not required by law (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ErpLand ( 105292 ) on Monday October 07, 2002 @08:56PM (#4407274)

    I work for a Spanish ISP and have read the various articles about this on web sites in Spain.

    As far as I'm aware the only company to block access to Batasuna [batasuna.org] is Telefónica, plus companies of the same group like Terra and Telefónica-Data. We get our upstream bandwidth from Telefónica Data so we've been affected: access to the IP of the Batasuna site is blocked on all their routes out of Spain.

    Given that Telefónica is the ex-public telco in Spain, only privatised fairly recently, this does smell a bit like the government still has rather a lot of influence there.

    Connections through other companies all seem to work as normal. Try doing a traceroute to www.batasuna.org from An Spanish ISP that uses UUNet [web.ocea.es] (in the Tools section)

    The judge Baltasar Garzón who's effecting the illegalization of the Batasuna party seems to be getting nowhere over their web site and is trying all sorts of things. He's written to ICANN asking them to block the domain name batasuna.org - they said it's nothing to do with them.

    Although I to think that ETA are a despicable terrorist organisation and action should be taken against Batasuna for supporting them, censorship is never the answer.

  • ETA are just stubborn fanatics. (Score:3, Informative)

    by anon mouse-cow-aard ( 443646 ) on Monday October 07, 2002 @09:24PM (#4407394) Journal
    Spain is right to ban anybody with links to the ETA. The IRA stopped when it became clear that a peace process and negotiations were possible. The basques have been granted an autonomous government (in 1979), with their own legislature. They live and participate fully in a normal western democracy, with full rights and freedoms. but the ETA is still planting bombs.

    The ETA is still planting bombs all over Spain, in spite of the massive public demonstrations all over the country, and especially inside the Basque region itself which have said "Stop Bombing!" See CBS News [cbsnews.com], and The Guardian [guardian.co.uk]

    They are still bombing in spite of being a party which is close to single digits in most polls, and in spite of the fact that the regional government is (peacefully) nationalist.

    The ETA has more in common with Al Qaida than the IRA, where anyone who is not as violently radical is branded a traitor to the cause.


    • Trying to knock them off the internet is just dumb.
      It will make the Spaniards look dumb. Instead, they should get the group onto the US' terrorost
      organization list, so that they can no longer do
      business in any western country. A little hint about the
      proper use of US bases in Spain should do the trick.
      • So the only reason we shouldn't support internet censorship of people we disagree with is that it's dumb and ineffective?

        People should be able to read what they want, and they ought to have the right to present their views on a website.

        Regardless of the fact that they and the ETA may have vaguely the same ultimate goal, Batasuna appears to be a party that believes in Basque independence, and not a terrorist organization itself. There is no reason to extend any issues with the ETA to them. At risk of making a controversial analogy, it's like lumping together people who are against abortion and people who kill abortion doctors.

        I don't know what the Spanish government should do about the ETA, but I'm pretty sure that what they do shouldn't have anything to do with the legitimate desires of others in the Basque province to get their message out.
        • It really depends on how close Batasuna is to the ETA. Much was made in the US of muslim charities who fund groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida. The assets of those groups have had their accounts frozen in the US, without any sort of trial. Very few people object to that in the US. If the Batasuna is overtly peaceful group which aides and abets a terrorist group, why should they be treated differently ?

          There are other parties which are nationalist. They are far more popular than Batasuna. While these results may be out of date, look at the '94 election Here [sispain.org] The winner is the "Basque Nationalist Party", with 30% of the vote. The second, the "Basque Socialist party" with 20%. It is hard to figure out which of the remaining ones is left, but you're in the 10% and lower region... The Basques do have a voice and they do use it to disavow the ETA.

      • Get them on the list? If it hasn't worked for the UK with our oh-so-special relationship, it's unlikely to work for Spain.
    • WHere and who should judge what is available or not, specially when it comes to political ideas?

      Spain suffered 40 years of dictatorship, with all the censorship attached, it is sad to see that there are people in Spain that did not learn anything form this experience and are far too willing to commit the same mistakes.

      ETA and its supporters should be fought with the arms of reason and eventual negotiation. When a group of people feel agravated (and many people in the Basque country obviosuly do, otherwise they would not be voting for Batasuna) suppression of ideas an elemental freedoms will not silence them and in the contrary, will give them more ammunition to condemn a goverment for repressive measures.
    • If they were, the "ETA problem" would have been resolved long ago.

      The situation is far more complex. I've been living in Spain for 27 years and, although in Madrid you're not so much involved with the political issues, you get lots of information on this daily.

      Alex

  • AND (Score:2, Insightful)

    by droyad ( 412569 )
    I thought it only happened in China or Arabia Saudi or the US...
    WorldCom Forced To Block Questionable Sites [slashdot.org]
    • Yeah, 'cause child porn is legitimate political speech, right?

      Trying to make a comparison between blocking child porn and blocking controversial political info is absurd.

  • What's on the website... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by cookd ( 72933 )
    I speak a bit of Spanish, let's see what the hubbub is about...

    Ok, website in a foreign language that looks nothing like Spanish. Luckily there is a link for Castellano in the corner. Ah, much better.

    First headline is "I know what you did last summer." Seriously. Anyway, talks about some political machinations, in somewhat inflammatory tone (The robber thinks he can...) and in not-too-great Spanish (very hard for me to read, lots of grammatical mistakes). Not recognizing the names of the players involved, I wouldn't be able to translate well. But the basic idea is that they are going to tell everyone about what is going on behind the closed doors of a government that claims to be good. (So far nothing worth censoring, IMHO.) Lets see, calling the Spanish government fascist and nazis... Propaganda in favor of "Euskal Herriarentzat" whatever/whoever that is.

    I don't know. Supposedly the site has ties to a terrorist organization, but I don't see anything like that on the front page. Other than your normal Rush Limbaugh (ok, probably a bit more severe than Rush) style political mud-slinging and name-calling taken to the extreme, I would never have called it illegal.

    But on the other hand, I haven't lived in Spain, so I can't talk about the political tensions. And maybe somebody else who does live there has looked at more than just the front page and could tell me whether or not the site does have terrorist links.

    In my opinion, this is a pretty lame site to be censoring. Maybe I'm missing something.

  • From an American in the Basque Country (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    There never have been any real firm links between ETA and Bastasuna. Batasuna doesnt condem their terrorist attacks, or does it praise them. Both ETA and Batasuna are radical sepratists, but that is about it. ETA is already outlawed and on US terrorist lists. It is strange for us americans to see that in Europe they dont have nearly unlimited free speach, the government can outlaw a political party here in Spain and they cant post signs with the name Batasuna, protesters cant have anything that identifies them with Batasuna, and the batasuna politicians cant associate under the name batasuna anymore. In Germany, IIRC, you cant buy/sell anything that is Nazi related.
  • Just my point of view.

    Today Spanish Goverment is pressing the hardest in 25 years of democracy, against terrorism. This goverment is legitimate (has a broad majority in parliament) but has a strong centralist (Madrid) point of view of things. Anyway it has adopted the path of ilegalization and prosecution that has arised controversy here. Some think it's time that somebody kick hard ETA and others think they are blocking this way the political arm of ETA closing all doors to negotiation.

    On the other hand ETA was borned during dictatorship and has no sense now. I think ETA followers maintain outdated ways to get what they want, but they aren't able to see the problem from outside its own logic.

    The relation of batasuna, eta, jarrai it's obvious to me. Jarrai perform kale borroka (street war = burning cars & busses, breaking restaurant glasses, burning cashtellers & that bad kid stuff) while ETA performs terrorism (shoot at head & bombing). Batasuna its just the political army.

    But what is also obvious its that the Basque nationalism (peacefull) its broadly supported (in fact they rule Basque Goverment), and even Batasuna (and what represents...) has some hundred thousand votes on each elections.

    I think banning that is closing the door to the voice of all that people, whatever they have to say.

  • 1. Block access to ETA website
    2. Watch it get added to Slashdot
    3. Watch it become the website most viewed by Spaniards
    4. ???
    5. Re-election!

  • Yup. Blocked. (Score:2, Informative)

    by vadim_t ( 324782 )
    I have an ADSL connection with Telefonica:

    vadim@alice:~$ traceroute batasuna.org
    traceroute to batasuna.org (161.58.228.92), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
    1 router (192.168.0.1) 1.010 ms 0.816 ms 0.744 ms
    2 10.3.50.1 (10.3.50.1) 66.757 ms 63.716 ms 63.745 ms
    3 83.Red-80-58-11.pooles.rima-tde.net (80.58.11.83) 63.761 ms 60.499 ms 61.945 ms
    4 37.Red-80-58-76.pooles.rima-tde.net (80.58.76.37) 66.936 ms 71.502 ms 63.596 ms
    5 17.Red-80-58-72.pooles.rima-tde.net (80.58.72.17) 65.170 ms 70.477 ms 71.765 ms
    6 242.Red-80-58-73.pooles.rima-tde.net (80.58.73.242) 68.336 ms !H * 68.530 ms !H
    vadim@alice:~$

    For those who don't know, "!H" means "Host Unreachable"

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