Slashdot Log In
2600 Magazine Defeats Ford
Posted by
michael
on Fri Jun 28, 2002 08:07 AM
from the parry-and-riposte dept.
from the parry-and-riposte dept.
narftrek cut-and-pastes the text from 2600's announcement that Ford has conceded the case they brought against 2600 over a certain domain. Our earlier story has some background. A Volvo repair shop near me is named "Island Vo Vo"; the L is silent, you see, because Ford really sucks.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Sounds familiar (Score:2, Insightful)
There isn't anything there now, but I do remember something being up there at one point.
editorializing (Score:5, Funny)
You know, it's moments like this that make me realize that the vapid, heartless, childish, snide front-page editorializing on slashdot is the only reason i still read this damn site.
keep up the good work, cheers
Here's Why (Score:5, Informative)
--SNIP--
Ford didn't just sue. Ford asked for $100,000 in damages. Not for all these cases put together - $100,000 per address! And Ford won't just let any of these people give up the names and walk away. Ford won't reimburse them for their registration and renewal costs.
Wally Rawson (the parts guy) didn't want to be bothered with the lawsuit, so he just gave Ford both names. Ford is still suing him. Ford tells him he can't crawl out of the soup until he pays Ford $6000.00 ($3000 per name). The fordsucks guy, evidently, decided it would be cheaper to pay the blackmail than to fight it out in court.
Read More [fordreallysucks.com]
I thought that page was worth a read.
Re:Here's Why (Score:2, Informative)
Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:2, Insightful)
The one who should be angry is General Motors. They're the ones being told to screw off.
Re:Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:2)
Re:Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:4, Informative)
> can't figure that part out.
They registered the domain name with the intention of making a site to bitch about GM.
They didn't have any content yet, so they pointed it to Ford until they got more organized.
Once Ford started legal proceedings, they almost had to keep that address pointing at Ford, anything else would have been seen as backing down.
Parent
Re:Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:2)
I would say you could bitch a lot more about Ford, past and present than GM. I shouldn't even have to list those reasons for you (pinto, firestone, etc.) GM is a natural target though, I suppose. When you've produced nearly 1/3rd of the cars on the road in the US you can expect a lot of people to not like you =]
Re:Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:2)
>in particular? I guess that's what I am curious
>about. Is it anything significant, or is it just
>another excuse to bitch?
Sounds like it was just an excuse to bitch.
From http://www.fordreallysucks.com/more_info.html [fordreallysucks.com]
>Months after the threat from General Motors, we
>pointed the domain at various competitors of GM.
>It was our eventual plan either to find or put
>together a site that would provide a forum for
>people critical of the company. While that was
>being done, we pointed the domain to other sites
>that might be of interest to people who weren't
>big fans of General Motors. One of these (it made
>sense to us then and it still does now, albeit
>less so after what we've learned) was Ford.
Re:Hell, Ford should be happy with the link! (Score:3, Insightful)
The wonderful thing about 2600 cases is that the worst that can happen is they throw Goldstein et. al. in the slammer which given that they appear to have the personality of the Grouch in Sesame street (being anoyed makes me happy) I suspect they would really, really enjoy...
I don't much care if 2600 can't point 'fuckxyz' at Ford. But I do care about the various deep linking cases.
The sheer eggregiousness of the 2600 case made it a pretty good test case. If 2600 lost the risk of collateral damage to serious deep linking would be minimal. If they win, well if you can point fuck at someone then you can probably point most anything.
The downside being that it was a pretty risky case that could easilly have backfired. 2600 made a really good target for the MPAA in the DeCSS case. My concern about this case was that they might easily have got a Reagan appointee conservative judge who might well have made an idiotic rulling because he disliked the 2600 people trying to turn a court case into performance art.
I had been asked to give expert testimony in the case but could not because Ford's legal people had added my employer in as a defendant in yet another case.
I suspect that the basic problem is that either the Ford lawyers are fundamentally incompetent or an incompetent manager insisted on a lawsuit. Starting a law suit in an untested area of law is a pretty stupid first recourse if your interest is to solve a problem. It is possible that Ford really wanted to have this area of law settled, but I doubt it.
It is the cases like this one that led to the charges for domain names in the first place. Until people started to file lawsuits registration was free.
Outdated facts.... (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.fordreallysucks.com/more_i
The page hasn't been updated in some time. Nasser is no longer president/ceo of ford. In fact, a Ford family member (William Clay Ford) is now running things again (which hasn't happened in a while).
Check out http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/30/ceos/ford/ for info.
Freedom of speech? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, whilst I'm all for freedom of speech, isn't it perhaps understandable that Ford should have been upset, or concerned, by this? Whilst the link was presumably set up as a kind of compliment to Ford (at GM's expense), it's easy to see that Ford would be upset by such a move - the page might well, to the non-tech-savvy, look as though it had been set up *by* Ford themselves; hardly a professional image to betray.
In cases like this where it's not immediately clear *who* is doing the "speaking", isn't the concept of "freedom of speech" clouded? Wouldn't this stray into libel territory, where words are being essentially "put into the mouth" of Ford? Certainly, anyone with the technical knowhow could determine who the page *was* owned by - but many people don't have that technical knowledge, and will go with their gut reactions.
Of course, legal action is a typically heavy-handed response. Nonetheless, if I'm reading the situation correctly then I can feel a certain empathy for Ford's initial reaction..
Try reading the article (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:2, Funny)
This seems like ethical question I've never seen discussed before. I understand both sides - would have been professional from Ford to ask 2600-guys pointing fuckGM to Ford's site - but also vice versa... would have been very nice from 2600 to ask Ford what they would like if fuckGM pointed to their site. And afterwards it isn't hard to say what would have happened...
2600: Can we point fuckGM to your site?
Ford: That's not good business for us, please don't.
2600: We'll do it anyway.
Ford: See you in court.
Eh?
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:2, Informative)
And Ford didn't need to ask 2600 to stop pointing it at them. As others have pointed out, Ford could have stopped people from seeing their site after typing in that domain with extraordinarily little effort.
So it is obvious that Ford was NOT trying to protect it's business. It was NOT trying to protect it's image. It WAS trying to create a whole new set of corporate rights by asserting that nobody could point/redirect to their site without their express consent. Fortunately (in a rare occurence lately) a court was sensible and recognized how very wrong Ford was and dismissed the suit. My shock is that Ford gave up. They're wrong, but that ususally doesn't stop corporate America.
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:2)
I see a potential problem there. Pointing a domain to an IP address that you don't own. This brings up the issue of the legality of linking, etc. as well I suppose. Is there any difference when it's at this level?
As far as libel, I don't see it. They aren't saying "Ford rapes little boys", they're saying "GM sucks".
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:3, Informative)
Same with a domain pointer. A simple programmatic check on the front page of Ford's site (about 3 lines of code) would turn away 99.99% of all the people coming through that domain. Ford chose not to deny those visitors, which would have accomplished everything they wanted
There's no problem, because the target can always diffuse the pointer. Ford was simply trying to use bully tactics to dissuade people from doing similar things even if its totally preventable by the alleged 'victim' of this terrible terrible crime - uncool, and like any company hypocritically attempting to keep their image cleaner than a bus full of Kumbaya-singin nuns, they deserved to lose.
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:2)
You're not even going that far. You're just saying, if anyone ever asks about "suckyville" or "hobohouse," what you're referring to is such-and-such address. Nobody's forwarding visitors. The visitors might choose to forward themselves, maybe.
Suing someone for doing that is like suing someone for referring to your street address in less-than-glowing terms.
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:3, Informative)
A simple programmatic check on the front page of Ford's site (about 3 lines of code) would turn away 99.99% of all the people coming through that domain.
A simple check of the host parameter (required for Http 1.1) would do the same thing for all of Ford's pages. No coding required, as this is handled by the server.
erm... (Score:2, Interesting)
They sued, and lost. Good.
Usually you would think it is just plain old good manners to say "look, stop that, I don't like it"
Also if they had a competent sysadmin, they could have just blocked that url by tweaking IIS. Maybe their MSCEs couldn't work it out perhaps...
Anyhow this smacks of plain ignorance (on Fords part) rather than anything else.
Re:Freedom of speech? (Score:2)
Sure, Ford may be upset or concerned about this. And I suppose I can understand why they're unhappy, but they can't claim that people don't have the right to link to their site, period.
Re: levels of understanding (Score:2)
One of the primary concepts of the WWW is hyperlinking. By its very nature, it can be done by any site, to any site. An extension of this concept is web page re-direction. To blindly make an assumption that an unprofessional sounding domain name linked to a company's competitor was initally created by the first company is foolish.
Could this mistake still happen? Oh, absolutely! Should a company like Ford waste any time worrying about it? Nope! Once the user gets redirected to Ford's own web site - the site should speak for itself. If Ford's own site doesn't vouch for their professional nature and interest a reader in purchasing/leasing one of their vehicles - then the problem is entirely on Ford.
If Jay & Silent Bob Were Part of 2600... (Score:2, Funny)
http://www.fuckfordfuckthemuptheirstupidasses.c
(which is free, btw)
-D
You mean... (Score:2, Funny)
Freedom to Speak.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Or has that been changed recently too?
Re:Freedom to Speak.. (Score:2)
The point was not go "get the suit anywahere"; I strongly suspect that Ford knew it would lose once this made it to court. The point was the scare 2600 into dropping the site. Like many other large companies, Ford uses this tactic in lieu of any actual legal right to shut down registrants of domains with "ford" in their names. fordreallysucks.com [fordreallysucks.com] is full of anectodes of this.
Fortunately, 2600 doesn't scare easily. And the precedent set will help protect other domain name registrants who are being bullied by Corporate America.
da (Score:2)
The article is wrong! (Score:3, Interesting)
They claim it is improbable to get attorney fees. If they look at some of the cases on Rule 68 and cases that provide for attorney fees, there is precident that says when there is a fee shifting provision with a requirement for the other side to pay costs, the costs do include fees.
Since the case was dismissed for failure to state a claim and they appealed it, but dropped it, I would argue that ford's lawyers should be sanctioned under rule 11 (filing a frivilous action).
Re:The article is wrong! (Score:2, Informative)
--Atlantix2000
I did something like this a few years ago... (Score:4, Interesting)
It did get me a few death threats and a mention on the weekly radio program of white supremacist and uber sister smoocher Tom Metzger's.
So to Emmanuel Goldstein, CONGRATULATIONS! You have certainly taken your ideas to lengths that would stop other men cold. Most people would give up after the first lawsuit.
To others, if you want to do some nifty activism, hijack urls of organizations you can't stand. If it isn't a registered trademark (which "white aryan resistance" wasn't) you can have fun and get death threats (mostly from illiterates).
It's fun, try it.
Re:I did something like this a few years ago... (Score:3, Funny)
That reminds me of the time the mathies took over alt.niggers. The new FAQ pointed out that the newsgroup name was an acronym for "Number theory, Integration, Graph theory, Group theory, Enumeration, Recursion, Set theory".
Re:I did something like this a few years ago... (Score:3, Interesting)
More complete account for the history books. http://isomorphisms.addr.com/blogger/2000_06_18_ar chive.html#381702 [addr.com]
Re:I did something like this a few years ago... (Score:3, Insightful)
Its really similar to TV or talk radio. If I don't like the humor on a show I don't watch it. If I find the opions espoused by a host inane or baseless, I don't listen. That's the great thing about free speech, anyone can say whatever they want, within certain reasonable limits. I certainly don't think any of the examples presented here are anywhere near any of those limits.
People don't have a right not to be offended.
If your firewall blocks 2600.com, do this... (Score:4, Informative)
Its about time. (Score:2)
-Turkey
America still works - sometimes (Score:2, Insightful)
The point is that, though the system is corrupt here, it's worse everywhere else, and has been worse. Think about it. 2600, a bunch described as hackers, vandals, criminals, terrorists, up against Ford Motor Company, which probably has bought thousands of politicians and other officials over the years. Anywhere else, the trial would be a foregone conclusion. 2600 would have been summarily ordered to stop whatever Ford didn't want them doing and that would have been it.
Re:America still works - sometimes (Score:2)
...
The point is that, though the system is corrupt here, it's worse everywhere else, and has been worse.
Who has moderated this post as insightful? It is nothing but misinformed stupidity. In (almost) all western countries politicians have been jailed for taking bribes. Maybe they did not loose their job for having affairs but then not everyone is as puritan as americans. And where are your facts concerning corruption?
You are a typical American that has never moved is obese bottom out of his country.
Re:America still works - sometimes (Score:2)
If you're ever near Richmond, Indiana, I suggest you stop by the Levi Coffin house. Pretty neat stuff. The "underground railroad" existed for nearly 82 years. With your numbers, that's less than 1 a year.
Trademark Infringement? (Score:2, Informative)
Does anyone know what GM;s stance on this was? The article doesn't mention it at all.
Screw with their heads (Score:3, Funny)
[fords-ip] fordbites.com
[fords-ip] fordsucks.com
[fords-ip]
Then sit and write a shell script that grabs their home page using each of these names, say, once per hour.
They'll be looking at their logs, and see all these Hostname: headers coming through and be totally confused. They'll come after you for spreading these "trademark-tarnishing" domains to the world -- but little do they it's just some stupid script on your server.
Actually, what may even be a bit cooler but takes more time - write a script that generates random Hostname: headers for all requests to Ford's servers..
Hmm.
Non-Issue Any More (Score:2)
Ford Motor Company has officially and unconditionally conceded its complete, utter, and perpetual loss on the merits of the FORD v. 2600 "FuckGeneralMotors.com" case. Ford has dismissed its appeal to the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, meaning that Ford has completely given up all attempts to reverse the victory that 2600 Enterprises won on December 20, 2001. The mutually agreed dismissal papers were officially entered by the Sixth Circuit on June 27, 2002.
It's those damn teenagers (Score:2, Informative)
No, it's because a bunch of teenage vandals got together and stole the 'L' off the sign. Rather than spend money to buy a new letter, the repair shop simply renamed itself.
Slapp Suits are a terrible menace. (Score:5, Interesting)
*sucks Domains (Score:4, Interesting)
-Waldo Jaquith
I'm not a web page designer (Score:3, Redundant)
When it showed as 'fuckgeneralmoters.com' as the referer, simply redirect to a disclaimer?
It seems that would be far more logical, save far more in legal fees, and would avoid any confusion.
Again, I could be wrong.
Re:Post Article? (Score:5, Informative)
Posted 28 Jun 2002 05:40:29 UTC
Ford Motor Company has officially and unconditionally conceded its complete, utter, and perpetual loss on the merits of the FORD v. 2600 "FuckGeneralMotors.com" case. Ford has dismissed its appeal to the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, meaning that Ford has completely given up all attempts to reverse the victory that 2600 Enterprises won on December 20, 2001. The mutually agreed dismissal papers were officially entered by the Sixth Circuit on June 27, 2002.
In the words of another FORD from Michigan -- former President Gerald Ford, "Our long national nightmare is over."
2600, which has given up nothing other than an extremely improbable claim for getting its attorneys' fees back from FORD, has expressly reserved the right to point "FuckGeneralMotors.com" [fuckgeneralmotors.com] anyplace whatsoever that 2600 pleases -- including at the FORD homepage -- at any time whatsoever, with or without notice.
Of course, the plan in March, 2001, when the lawsuit arose, was to point the address someplace more suitable than the FORD homepage, probably as soon as mid-April or early May, 2001. In other words, the lawsuit has actually delayed 2600's prior plans (several other domain names that were part of the same project have been re-pointed several times, while FuckGeneralMotors.com has remained pointed at FORD). Now that the lawsuit has been won, 2600 will be soliciting suggestions during the H2K2 [h2k2.net] conference, for the best place to point the Domain Name. Ultimately, this just proves how silly and counterproductive FORD's litigation strategy always has been from the beginning.
In December, 2001, Judge Robert Cleland of the Eastern District of Michigan, dismissed FORD's lawsuit in its entirety for "failure to state a claim upon which relief may be granted" -- which means that even assuming every single allegation in FORD's pleadings to be true (but the allegations weren't all true), FORD still had no legal right whatsoever to prohibit 2600 from pointing FuckGeneralMotors.com at FORD's homepage.
Needless to say, FORD did not like that outcome. Neither did a lot of other intellectual property interests all over the world. Indeed, a google search will reveal a number of PowerPoint(tm) presentations published on the Web (e.g., http://austlii.edu.au/ hkitlaw/resources/Pun_IP.pdf [austlii.edu.au]) by various intellectual property lawyers, emphasizing that the decision is being appealed. Well, now it isn't.
The decision stands. It is published at 177 F. Supp. 2d 661. And it is binding precedent. The decision has even been cited by the Sixth Circuit already, in an interim order that was issued in the "TaubmanSucks" case handled by Paul Levy of Public Citizen. http://www.citizen.org/documents/TaubDecision-3-11 -02.pdf . [citizen.org]
When FORD filed its appeal to the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in January, 2002, FORD sought to have the case reinstated so that FORD could take it to trial. 2600 filed a cross-appeal, solely on the issue of whether FORD should be required to reimburse 2600 for its legal bills (such fee awards, in cases under the Lanham Trademark Act, are not especially common and occur only in "exceptional" cases -- so the Sixth Circuit was likely to defer to Judge Cleland's decision to award 2600 its "costs" but not its attorneys' fees). 2600 still gets to take its "costs" back from FORD, and our lawyer is preparing to serve a deposition notice on Bill Ford, to gather the information necessary to garnish FORD's bank accounts, unless FORD cuts us a reimbursement check forthwith.
But the key point is that 2600's victory is permanent and FORD has voluntarily foregone any appeals. The savings, in terms of attorneys' fees, from our standpoint, are enormous.
Parent
Re:Wrong Domain? (Score:5, Informative)
However, the site does not disparage General Motors (aside from the domain name, of course). What it does do, however, is redirect you to the Ford website. That's what Ford is upset about. To the average idiot, it may seem that the site was set up by Ford.
Restating the obvious since 1992,
Parent
Re:www.fordreallysucks.com link within (Score:2)
Ummm, because you're too lazy to look at your browser's status bar?
Re:Mixed up URLs (Score:2)
Re:Why is 2600 doing this anyway? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what is really, really stupid about your entire argument. Ford brought on the lawsuit; 2600 defended themselves, and yet you blame 2600 for wasting the legal system's resources? How can that possibly make any sense whatsoever? Answer: it can't, and doesn't.
Parent