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Sklyarov Clarifies Circumstances of Release, Testimony

Posted by timothy on Mon Dec 24, 2001 02:54 PM
from the build-a-bridge-out-of-'im dept.
Government The Courts News
*ZiggyP0P* writes: "We remember hearing how Dmitry was let off and released (so he can finally go home) but how he had to cooperate with the government in the prosecution of his employer as a plea bargain. Turns out that this was all a lie by the Justice Dept. Skylarov has released his own statements which explain what exactly happened. He has entered into no legal plea bargain and he is still employed by Elcomsoft (even though the justice dept called him his former employer)."
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  • What?! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Legion303 (97901) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:00PM (#2747963) Homepage
    The government lied? Stop the presses!

    I'm glad for the opportunity to see exactly where they lied, though. Thanks, Dmitry.

    -Legion

    • Re:What?! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by digitalunity (19107) <digitalunity@yahoo . c om> on Monday December 24 2001, @03:05PM (#2747980) Homepage
      Yes, the government often speaks out of the side of their mouths. However, this is blatant and obvious miscoduct.

      There should be some inquiry into this matter.
      • Yes, the government often speaks out of the side of their mouths. However, this is blatant and obvious miscoduct.

        There should be some inquiry into this matter.

        Moderators: If you have to look up any of the terms I've used, don't moderate me. You're probably confused.

        So, if we don't know what "miscoduct" is, we can't moderate you? :-)

  • Backpedal! (Score:5, Funny)

    by chill (34294) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:01PM (#2747966) Homepage Journal
    Spin spin spin. It looks like the gov't is backpedaling fast and putting on spin in hopes it will all go away.

    "Cooperate" probably means he agreed to take their phone calls.

    Some junior D.A. probably wanted to make a career on a "big, bad, Russian hacker" and found out real life isn't like a Hollywood movie.
      • No, Mueller was in Washington the whole time the Sklyarov case was going on. Did you even read the bio you linked to?

        He started in his position as interim US Attorney in Northern CA in Aug 1998, officially confirmed in Oct 1999. Then he was the acting Deputy Attorney General of the US from Jan to May 2001, when he was nominated as the FBI director. He wasn't confirmed until Aug 2001, and took the oath of office in Sep 2001.

        So, although he was officially the US Attorney for Northern CA until Aug 2001, he hadn't worked there since January.

        Maybe you should actually read the pages you link to before you spread disinformation.

  • legal action (Score:4, Insightful)

    by blank_coil (543644) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:02PM (#2747968)
    Can he sue for being wrongfully imprisoned? I mean, he was jailed for 5 months, does he get some kind of reparation for his trouble?

  • saving face (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ryusen (245792) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:05PM (#2747977) Homepage
    sounds to me like the gov't is just trying to cover what they finaly realised to be a big mistake on their part... now they need to make it look like they are going easy on him out of sympathy or his "cooperation."

    i also remember in another article (can't remember where), his employer even offered to stand trial in his stead if they released dimitry... i found that to be quite admirable myself

  • Defamation Charges (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bstadil (7110) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:05PM (#2747979) Homepage
    If the statement by Skylarov is indeed the "Fact" then he should have a very good case for Defamation charges against the US government. Hope they file this is a Russian court so any claims agains the company will have a local offset. The DOJ made a mistake but they can't admit to that. Anyone found it poetic Justice that Adobe was barred from selling InSIde due to Patent Infringements.

  • The Best Part.... (Score:4, Offtopic)

    by spongebob (227503) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:06PM (#2747982)
    Is how they are trying to use this crap to "teach" a lesson. Know your rights!!!!

    I think that Neo said it best:
    "How bout I give you the finger and you give me my phone call."

    I still think the biggest punk in the whole process is Adobe...they backed out of the process in order to save some face on thier own knowing full well it was too late to stop the prosecution. grrr....
  • In a recent article in an English magazine 'Linux Format', it had a sort of guide to the dmca, what it meant etc, some of the things it went on about was that if Sklyarov was released, it could mean that the DMCA could be removed from US law, also being an infingement of the US's first amendment (freedom of speech)

    Mostly though, i think most people should be thinking, 'WHAT HAPPENS NOW'.

    What is the next direction for the goverment, and the anti-DMCA people (people with common sense) and where will this put the SSSCA.

  • Adobe's Strategy Backfires? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by GGardner (97375) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:07PM (#2747987)
    Before Dmitry was detained, who had heard of Elcomsoft? Apparently, they had sold very few copies of their software. Not that they'd asked for it, but now they've got more publicity than they could have paid for. I wonder if sales are picking up too? Could it be that Adobe's strategy has completely backfired?
    • That's interesting, I wasn't aware Adobe was pressing any charges. Seems I recall them withdrawing from the case, and it's not the DoJ's game.

      • Re:Adobe's Strategy Backfires? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by markj02 (544487) on Monday December 24 2001, @04:34PM (#2748162)
        The legal proceedings were started by the AG. What Adobe did is throw their weight around to get the AG to file charges against Sklyarov. Nor did Adobe "withdraw" or change their mind--they merely sent out a nice-sounding press release after the damage was done and there was nothing else for them to do. And Adobe's press release restates their position on copyright and the DMCA. Adobe hasn't gotten any nicer.

  • All a lie? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by anthony_dipierro (543308) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:08PM (#2747992) Journal

    Turns out that this was all a lie by the Justice Dept.

    What exactly was a lie? He did enter into an agreement. The government never said that he admitted guilt. Sure, they screwed up the employment status, but that is likely a minor oversight, not a lie. Much more minor than slashdot's "lie", saying that he agreed to testify against Elcomsoft.

    • Well, the guv'mint did say that Dmitry was a former employee of Elcomsoft, when Dmitry has been and still is employee by Elcomsoft. So they did lie in that aspect.

      However, the more important damage is done by spin doctoring. This is to create a "negative" image of Elcomsoft, by insinuating (inaccurately) that Dmitry has distanced himself from Elcomsoft and "cooperating" with the guv'mint.

      The rest of guv'mint press release is pretty much a spin, really saying nothing. Dmitry has always cooperated with the guv'mint, just by telling the truth. E.g., "Acknowledge his conduct in the offense". That's a spin. If a guy is apprehended for a crime. He is _not_ a criminal until proven to be so. Dmitry has _not_ been proven guilty in court. In fact, for this case, even the "offense" (crime) has not been proven in court. Nothing has been proven in court. In fact, the guv'mint dropped the case against Dmitry. Now, what does that say about the guv'mint's case? Perhas it's bunk?

      Dood, you got to recognize spin when you see one. It is really easy. Spin is everywhere. No, it is not conspiracy, spin is what people do when they want to protect themelves, gain an advantage, etc.


      e.


          • I like slashdot, and I think it would make it an excellent alternative news source, if they'd just put a little effort into it. Of course they're still head and shoulders above the Fox "News" channel.

          • b) watch Fox news like everyone else.

            It is a sad commentary of our society that Fox New is considered a serious news source. Fox News is nothing more than a PR firm for the Republican party. Further, they don't even try to hide their bias, they are openly condescending to anyone who does not agree with them.

              • The problem with Fox News is they claim to be fair and unbiased, when in fact they are not. If you listen to them objectively for any length of time you will see they have a heavy conservative bias. I am not saying CNN or MSNBC are any better, they are not. Only that Fox is not fair and unbiased and they are openly condescending to anyone who does not agree with them.

  • Link to FULL TEXT of Skylarov document (Score:5, Informative)

    by Seth Finkelstein (90154) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:14PM (#2748007) Homepage Journal
    It would be helpful for the discussion to be informed by

    The FULL TEXT of the document regarding Skylarov [usdoj.gov]

    Further, deponent sayeth not (at least in this message ...)

    Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org) [sethf.com]

    • Maybe I am putting words in your mouth that you never meant but it seems to me that going back to the "Source" is not quite valid. The issue at hand is the perception that he had admitted "wrongdoing" that is perpetrated by the DOJ / Press release. We have seen again and again the government's refusal to protect its citizen, let alone a foreigner, from its own misconduct. This got to stop.

  • Kudos to Elcomsoft (Score:5, Insightful)

    by r_j_prahad (309298) <r_j_prahad@@@hotmail...com> on Monday December 24 2001, @03:17PM (#2748014)
    Everytime I read yet another update to this semingly never-ending ordeal, one thing that remains constant is what a wonderful employer Elcomsoft must be to work for. They've stood by Dmitry's side beginning with day one, they're still hanging in there fighting for him, and their CEO even offered himself up in a bizarre "hostage exchange" scenario.

    I hope all of the employees of Adobe are truly embarrassed about this.

    • Shame on us (Score:5, Insightful)

      by volpe (58112) on Monday December 24 2001, @04:25PM (#2748135)

      I hope all of the employees of Adobe are truly embarrassed about this.


      I'm embarassed about this, because my government is making our country look like an ass.

    • I agree... it's good of Elcomsoft to step in. However, did Dmitry break US law by writing the code in question, or did Elcomsoft break US law by distributing the code?

      <ianal>

      The claim is presumably concerned with the distribution of a circumvention device, by the hosting of the application on a US server. If Dmitry merely wrote the application on his employer's equipment in Russia, then I can't see any way he could be guilty under US law.

      I can see a way that he could be seen to violate the license terms he must have accepted to be able to reverse engineer the format, but that's a civil charge.

      I'd say the alleged crime was to upload that program to the US server, thereby distributing a circumvention device in DMCA jurisdiction -- something his employer did. In which case, Elcomsoft are definitely responsible.

      [Okay, if Elcomsoft is a small company, it was probably him doing the uploading!]

      </ianal>

      • Re:Kudos to Elcomsoft (Score:4, Insightful)

        by arkanes (521690) <arkanes&gmail,com> on Monday December 24 2001, @04:12PM (#2748115) Homepage
        You'd think someone who reads slashdot would know more about it, but lets make it perfectly clear - the product is not illegal in Russia. And having a CEO offer to take personal responsibilty for something when a subordinate has been blamed is pretty fucking unheard of ANYWHERE.
          • And still I think you miss the point--I don't believe the CEO was trying to save a person per se, instead he was defending the legality of his companies actions. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to read it.

            Every action by Mr. Katalov in this case has appeared to be nothing other than sincere personal concern for one of his employees. I doubt you have even a scrap of evidence to the contrary, so I won't waste my time asking you for any.

            I hope I never become as cynical as you.

  • Challenge to DMCA (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sabinm (447146) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:30PM (#2748041) Homepage Journal
    This actually means two things

    1.Dimitry will not face any charges, nor will have a felony record.

    2.Since this is not a case of testifying against Elmsoft, this means that a challenge to the DMCA is still possible, with a legitimate corporation with relatively large coffers defending itself.

    So really, the tech-culture gets its day in court without any criminal reprecussions and we get a constitutional challenge to a very unconstitutional law.

    Way to go, DOJ, I knew you were on our side!
    • Dimitry will not face any charges, nor will have a felony record.

      Unfortunately, this isn't what this means. What the government has said they're doing is defering prosecution until a later date.

      They've said they'll considering dropping charges after a year or after ElcomSoft is tried, whichever comes later, only if he has met his "obligations". If he hasn't, they'll just place him back on trial in a year or whenever the ElcomSoft trial is finished, whichever is later. The wording of the government agreement seems vague enough that they could simply change their minds at that point, making up some "obligation" he didn't meet.

      The challenge to the DMCA is still possible but may not be able to go very far considering the fact that ElcomSoft is not a U.S. corporation. (At least I'm pretty sure they're not. Does anyone here know for sure?)

      There is still plenty of chance of criminal repercussions from all this. There will still be a trial against ElcomSoft and there could still be one against Dmitry as well with possible convictions coming from both.

  • Song for Skylarov (reprise) (Score:5, Funny)

    by kitts (545683) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:41PM (#2748058) Homepage
    Young man,
    there's no need to feel down
    Because your plane
    back home can't get off the ground
    I said young man,
    Get comfy in your new town
    There's no need to be unhappy.

    Young man,
    There's no place you can go
    I said young man,
    Until you cough up some dough
    You will stay here
    until you've served all your time
    For your insignificant crime.

    It's fun to stay in the U S of A,
    Because of that old grand D M C A
    For cracking DVD's,
    Or an e-book or three,
    You'll get jailed for eterniteeeee...

    It's fun to stay in the U S of A
    Because of that old grand D M C A
    For proving to the world
    That our encryption's a toy
    You'll get jailed with all the boyyyyyyys...

  • Another reason for civil disobedience (Score:4, Informative)

    by argoff (142580) on Monday December 24 2001, @04:13PM (#2748116)
    This proves two things:

    1) It must be obvious to everyone that the DMCA is unconstitutional

    2) DMCA type laws are never going to go away till we attack the root of the problem, copyrights

    Unless you think that we're going to conjure up a propaganda machine the size of the movie industry, or that the government will suddenly start protecting liberties again, civil disobedience is the only way to go.

  • wordsmithing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nhavar (115351) on Monday December 24 2001, @05:09PM (#2748233) Homepage
    Notice that the original state statement mentions that he admitted to his "conduct" not "misconduct". Meaning that basically he admitted that he wrote a program that cracked the adobe file, not admitted that what he did was wrong. The second point is that he agreed to aid in the prosecution, well maybe he agreed to testify and the prosecution wants to use that testimony but that doesn't equate to him actually agreeing to "help/aid" the prosecution.

    personally I think that the government is going to jerk around until enough people forget about this. I think in hind sight they do not want this very high profile case to go to court, likewise none of the media companies want it there either. They want this law to sit on the books for awhile and become "accepted" before anyone tries to test it. I'm sure another year from now we'll here some snippet blurb saying that the govt and elcomsoft entered into a "Plea" agreement where elcomsoft agree's not to sell the product in the US in exchange for the small slap on the wrist or "deferred" sentencing. What a joke!

  • If absurd US laws are applicable in Russia... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by evilpaul13 (181626) on Monday December 24 2001, @05:15PM (#2748252)
    Why was Dmitry arrested? "His" program was under US Copyright Law a "work for hire", and therefore he never owned it in the first place.
  • Joe Burton says that the DOJ statement "is a cleverly crafted statement that promotes the notion that Dmitry admits wrongful conduct and has entered into a Plea Agreement with the U.S. Government."

    But the DOJ statement never uses the term "Plea Agreement", nor does it claim that Dmitri admitted to "wrongful" conduct.

    Dmitri claims that he is not cooperating with the government.

    But in the Diversion Agreement he agrees to testify if requested by the government in the case of United States v. Elcom Ltd., agrees that any statements he makes may be used against him in a prosecution for obstruction of justice or perjury, and waives most of his constitutional rights in exchange for a promise that he will not be prosecuted if he lives up to his end of the Agreement. Not cooperation?

    And ElcomSoft says that Dmitri's testimony can only be supportive to their case and they only want Dmitri to tell the truth.

    But of course, ElcomSoft is still a defendant facing criminal prosecution in this case, and criminal defendants always claim that when the true facts come out, they will be shown to be innocent.

    So once you cut through the spin that Dmitri, ElcomSoft and the EFF (none of whom are neutral, disinterested parties in this case) put on it, the only real undisputed inaccuracy in the DOJ statement is the bit about the "former" employer. Which is probably a misreading of Dmitri's statement in the Diversion Agreement that "continuing through July 15, 2001, [he] was employed by" ElcomSoft.

    Remember that PR works for both sides, folks.

  • I'm sick of this! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sj0 (472011) on Monday December 24 2001, @11:50PM (#2748780) Homepage Journal
    You americans should be sick of your governments behaviour. Lying? Urging the people not to question their government? Regular people being harrased for just that thing by the Secret Service and FBI? You my freinds are living in a totalinarian police state. Enjoy living in 1984 for the rest of your life. Personally, I never cared for being forced by the government to think their way and being threatened by a federal agency to do so or "you are in line with the terrorists", but I'm in a country which is still required by law to allow it's people to question government. I'm in a country where satire against the government(and corporations) is still allowed. I'm in a country where the person who gets the most votes in an election is the winner. In short, I don't live in the USA.

    • Re:Skylarov rates high on the Trust-O-Meter, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by chill (34294) on Monday December 24 2001, @03:05PM (#2747976) Homepage Journal
      Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Janet Reno, FBI @ Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.

      The gov't has demonstrated not only a willingness, but an eagerness to lie on all fronts over anything that might be potentially embarrasing.

      Why stop now?

      • Sigh... (Score:3, Informative)

        by sheldon (2322)
        It's one thing to accuse the government of being corrupt. It's quite another to pin the blame for this corruption on the very parties who tried to clean it up.

        I'd very much appreciate you explaining each one of these incidents.

        I'm very much curious what you think Janet Reno did that was wrong. The only thing I can recall is her listening to the Republican appointees in the FBI when she first took office. Thus begat Waco. Both her and President Clinton apologized for that, and cleaned house in the FBI.

        What always amazes me is how ignorant, stupid and partisan Republicans are. This idiot is trying to pin the blame for Ruby Ridge on the Clinton Administration when the event occured in '92.

        But I'll bet back in '92 if it had gained any news coverage this moron would have claimed we shouldn't criticize the FBI because that's not patriotic.

        It makes me want to puke just thinking that my family has died protecting the rights of scum like this.
        • What always amazes me is how ignorant, stupid and partisan Republicans are.


          Whereas the Democrats are paragons of virtue and cooperation. Bullshit. Where do you get off?

          This idiot is trying to pin the blame for Ruby Ridge on the Clinton Administration when the event occured in '92.


          All the poster did was list Ruby Ridge in his list of government mistakes. He didn't blame it on anyone. Little jumpy, are we?

          But I'll bet back in '92 if it had gained any news coverage this moron would have claimed we shouldn't criticize the FBI because that's not patriotic.


          Oooh, a straw man argument. Clever!

          It makes me want to puke just thinking that my family has died protecting the rights of scum like this.


          Not me. The only way to preserve intelligent conversation is to let people say stuff that's as stupid as they want.
          • "Whereas the Democrats are paragons of virtue and cooperation. Bullshit. Where do you get off? "

            No, Democrats are just smart enough to know when they are lying.
            • Maybe you should, too, dumbass. Here's a hint: if an argument starts out with "You probably think...," there's a good chance it's fallacious.
        • Government in general is corrupt. It takes large amounts of money to run for office, and the steady of stream of favors just perpetuates our corrupt republic. District attorneys need to have high profile cases for promotions, Police departments need to take houses and cars from citizens for their police budgets. Senators and Congress are to busy with campaign funding, and re-elections. Judges plan for cushy jobs with law firms and big businesses when they are off the bench.

          Dmitry was lucky that the government didn't want to continue with the case, the feds could of pushed it and won. Busting (Imaginary) hackers helps everyone in our corrupt government.

          -
          It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. - Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

      • Waco? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by jdavidb (449077) on Monday December 24 2001, @06:55PM (#2748437) Homepage Journal

        I live in Texas, and I still don't think the govt did anything legally wrong at Waco. All I know is, a bunch of nutties with guns were down there plotting to eventually kill me and my family, and a bunch of govt agents got themselves shot trying to take them out before they all killed themselves.



        It blew my mind how conservative talk radio immediately tried to picture these guys as, "Just peaceful, churchgoing, religious folks exercising their 2nd amendment priviliges.

      • I think the contents of this webpage [world-action.co.uk] are a bit extreme, but the USA has probably contributed (directly or indirectly) to the deaths of large numbers of people, at home and abroad, in the name of greed and control. Unfortunate, but probably true.

        I hope one day the USA will return to the Constitution and lawful behavior, and perhaps even start visualizing utopia again.
    • And if we really think our own government is so evil, why are we still here?

      personally i don't think our government is evil... just filled with greedy incompetents...
      why are we still here? mostly because we are spoiled and complacent (and can't spell)

      Why is it that, when it's the Government's word versus some cracker's, everyone always wants to believe the cracker?

      this this case i believe the "cracker" simply because he's being charged with breaking a law that doesn't apply in his country... this is about as silly was an american gun maker/seller being arrested in japan for making/selling guns in the us...
      • You have it so wrong, please actually think about the facts before spouting off, like some brainless slashdroid. Using your analogy it would properly be stated like this...

        An American gun maker/seller being arrested in
        Japan for making guns in the US & selling them in Japan.

        If his dumbass company would not have had their servers located in the US, it would not be an issue, but because the servers were physically located in the US, it is breaking the law *IN THE US* (download from Chicago, and the credit card transactions occur from a town in Washington, both IN THE US). That's what all the mindless droids don't get, it's not that it was created in Russia and somehow we are locking up people who do things legal in their home country when they come to the US. As long as they don't do their shit *in the US* then we don't do shit (and looking over history we haven't done anything until they physically bring it to the US). This was the entire point of Sealand (Havenco) do your shit in their country where just about anything is legal and other countries can't touch you, because your doing transactions physically in another country.

        Sheesh, sometimes people really need a cluestick to the head.
          • On the indictment releaser by the DOJ list the places that they physically host their servers in the US where someone in California acquired all of the software from Elcomsoft completely within the US.

            Page 2 Lines 26-28 & Page 3 Lines 1-4
            Page 4 line 1-2

            http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/press/assets/apple ts /2001_08_28_sklyarov_ind.pdf

            There are mutliple things to blame here:
            Elcomsoft for actually doing their transactions within the US.
            Clinton & Congress for passing the DMCA
            but you hit the head on really who's to blame, Adobe. But, the one group who I'd really not put any blame on is the DOJ. The law was technically violated, Adobe called up the DOJ and essentially forced them to hall him in (the law was technically violated, and that's their job). The reason why Adobe probably first called for a criminal case, was to prevent him from leaving the US, so they could procede with a civil suit against him (kinda twisting & perverting the law to their own use). Adobe saw what a bad publicity wreck they made and tried to sweep it under the rug, only problem is once the DOJ has filed against you, you gotta go through the entire process (painful as it may be, it keeps corporations & powerful people from being able to try and circumvent the law with powerful friends).

            I personally think that the DMCA paints with too broad of a brush, but when people complain without having the proper facts it hurts everyone else who is trying to change things, since the same groups of people are stating two different things. If the people on the same side trying to fight the law can't get things straight then both sides tend to lose credibility. Which is why I was a bit curt with you earlier.
    • Why is it that, when it's the Government's word versus some cracker's, everyone always wants to believe the cracker? Doesn't the Justice Department have a lot more to lose by lying about this?

      No. This is business as usual for a PR agency (government or otherwise). This is what PR agencies do (government or otherwise). It is INDIVIDUALS who have most to lose if they make the slightest mistep. Lives and families have been trashed over much less, but corporations and government institutions do it daily, and nobody really cares.

      Hell, the PURPOSE of a corporation is to protect member individuals from the law, much like what happens in a government institution, where there are multitudes of ways (yes, even legal ones) to CYA.

                • Accepted. (Score:3, Insightful)

                  by nyet (19118)
                  Truthfully, I was nodding when I read your original post. Our founding fathers had the luxury to flee to a completely new continent (albiet one populated by some pesky indigenous peoples that needed wiping out). We, however, have no such luxury. When people say idiotic things like "love it or leave it" they don't think to ask "leave for where?"

                  Another continent ruled by ogilarchy and the same corporations as every where else? Bummer.

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