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Corinthians.com Taken Away, Given To Soccer Team
Posted by
jamie
on Thu Jul 20, 2000 04:05 PM
from the render-unto-WIPO dept.
from the render-unto-WIPO dept.
TomCollins writes "I just read on Declan McCullagh's
politech
mailing list that J D Sallen, the current owner of
corinthians.com,
has
lost the domain
to the Brazilian soccer team Corinthians in a ruling by Roberto Bianchi of WIPO. Sallen had been using the domain to display scripture from the book of Corinthians long before hearing about the soccer team of the same name."
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This guy is just a squatter that got caught (Score:4)
This guy is just a squatter, plain and simple. He grabs domains that make use of other people's names and makes money off of them. He uses the fact that he wouldn't stand up to real companies like Dow Jones to illustrate that he's a good guy. Puhleease. The only reason corinthians.com has any content on it at all is so he can get you guys to rally behind him without any of the facts.
Don't believe me? Check out his other NIC handle (with the token aol account even)
It's too bad it wasn't a real judge in a trademark infringement case that could have awarded damages also.
Re:Mixed Feelings (Score:5)
Another point is simply that he paid his 70 (or whatever the going rate is right now) to purchase the domain. There are no RULES saying he has to use it. He can do whatever he wants with it because he paid his money to register it. He wasn't stopped. No one questioned him. There was nothing but a transaction made for property.
The Judge is a bloody idiot for not seeing this. This is a clear cut case to me and if I was the owner I'd go to my death fighting this in court. The simple matter of fact is that he owned. Someone else came along and said we want it because its the name of our Soccer Team and we are more important than you. The Judge like the bloody babbling foolish idiot he is said, "Take it, you want it to make money". (How does a soccer team make money from a web page btw? - There's gotta be a model right?) The guy who legitamately purchased is now out of whatever he bought. Simple analogy for me is. You just bought a flatbed truck (not because you use it for towing or hualing anything you just bought it to sit in your driveway) Some guy rolls around and says "HEY~!!" I have a construction company and I want your truck. You obviously laugh at the fool and slam the door. You appear in court where the Judge orders you to hand over your keys. End of analogy.
If this becomes standard and no one raises goddamn hell about it. We are in serious trouble.
-anon
Re:Recourse at law? (Score:2)
The whole system is a mess, deal with it.. (Score:2)
Enter realistic life. I'm working on a website for a company. The company is non-us based, but if all goes well it will attract business from all over the world. I'm not going to register the name in
Do we need DNS changed? yes. Should country codes matter much? No. Do I know what it will change into? Nope, I'm just along for the ride.
bash: ispell: command not found
This frightens me. (Score:4)
B) The soccer team is a national thing and probably should use their own country's TLD. Biblical quotations are global in scope and are more suited to using a gTLD (although admittedly
C) The soccer team doesn't even have a trademark on the name Corinthians; their name is Corinthiao, which is apparently pronounced the same in Portuguese, but not spelled the same - and domain names are spelled, not spoken aloud (generally).
D) The way trademark law works, I could sell a trivia game called "Guess?" but I couldn't sell bluejeans called "Guess?". Why should domain names be any different? If he had corinthiansoccer.com or corinthianfutbol.com or corinthiaofutbol.com or something, it might be a different situation.
--
Business ruined the Net (unnecessarily long post!) (Score:2)
If it weren't for the special US TLDs (com, net, org) we'd have microsoft.wa.us and no one would think twice about it. If you didn't happen to know the URL, your ISP's home page (isp.state.us) would have links to portals where you could search.
The solution is not more classifying domains. Rather, the solution is less domains... precisely 3 less... com, net, org. I'm at a loss as to what to do about edu, mil, and gov. I guess we should get rid of those too.
Looking far into the future, I see a net without domains. I see myself hitting my isp's portal (or perhaps a portal the isp contracted its users out to) that could find things for me, including other portals. I see email addresses that are more like phone numbers and email programs that handle the name-to-number conversion. I see the end of spam, as it becomes impossible to send an untraceable message. (Privacy buffs, think caller-id vs caller-id-block vs "this number does not accept calls marked private...", you'll be free to send anonymously but you should expect it to be bounced instantly without my ever seeing it.)
I find it hard to believe that the net really needs domain names. The postal and telephone systems accommodate more "nodes" than the net without needing to name each "node" after its owner.
Er... scratch that... I just remembered a particular company in Redmond whose address is... One Microsoft Way
--Threed-Looking out for Numero Uno since 1976!
Re:Why is religion stealing commercial space? (Score:2)
Too bad this isn't really followed anymore
Re:The actual text of Article 6, Clause 2: (Score:2)
"anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
So the constitution wins any conflicts between itself and treaties, where treaties differ.
It does not say: "anything in the Constitution or laws of any State or anything in Treaties to the contrary notwithstanding."
Not even congress/pres can bypass the constitution (Score:3)
So should you. The constitution is the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND in the USA. Not even the executive and the legislative branches of gov't combined have the power to alter it.
Did 75% of the states also approve the WIPO treaty?
No.
Then where the constitution and WIPO conflict, the constitution always wins. always. Always. ALWAYS. That what SUPREME in "supreme law of the land" means.
Now I suppose you're gonna say how does the constitution apply to domain names? Well, here's the answer... the 10th amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
WIPO is neither the "States" nor "the People". Thus WIPO has zero legal power in the USA to enforce anything and its rulings are not at all binding on US citizens or residents.
I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
Re:I'm losing my domain now (Score:2)
They did have the trademark before I registered my domains, but I hadn't heard of them.
What's funny about this is their laywers are telling me if I have cybermacfubar.com, I would be fine, but since the domain matches the word exactly, I'm screwed. But that brings up an interesting point - I don't just have cybermac - I have cybermac.com! (and .net, which I had first because some company nabbed the .com the day before I checked).
I did some calling around, it looks like I'll have to pay $200 an hour to fight having to pay $3,000 and lose my domains.
I'm losing my domain now (Score:3)
They claim unless I had my own trademark of the word cybermac, like they do, I just flat out lose and have to give mine up.
They want $3,000 for their legal fees and my two domains, otherwise they're suing for $30,000+ in damages, plus legal fees.
Anyone know any cheap lawyers in Minnesota?
Why? (Score:5)
So the quotes from the bible were tarnishing the reputation/diluting the trademark of the soccer team? Would that imply that they're a bunch of evil bastards? =)
Re:More Freaking TLDS, You Limey Bastards! (Score:2)
This wouldn't be as much of a problem... (Score:2)
--
And in the mean time, cybersquatting continues ... (Score:2)
Yeah that's the most annoying part. It looks like 90% of the legal challenges WRT domaine names involve only legitimate use (etoy vs. etoys) while the real bastards, the domain squatters carry on their business.
Now I'm really glad ICANN has finally decided to open up new GTLD, and I'd love to see how the greatdomains.com kind of people looke like when it becomes a reality.
Re:And in the mean time, cybersquatting continues (Score:2)
So what about that company who registered 12000 combinations of common Family Name to sell them back at a higher price ... hey they were there first ...
Re:Phear Fonix... (Score:3)
It's interesting to note that "slashdot dot org", when pronounced with a mouthfull of pebbles and with a bad cold, sounds pretty much like "microsoftsux" in the same conditions.
The panel therefore concludes that CdrTaco bend over and take it up the ass.
sorry. (Score:2)
that is not a comforting thought... (Score:2)
You mean like China? Not exactly my first choice for personal freedoms, even if they have become capitalist and relatively democratic now.
The bigger the empire, the more difficult revolution is, as well. They have a LOT more military and police resources.
Most modern revolutions against larger empires have only managed with external help (including the American Revolution), and they only extended to part of the empire. When there is no external help (e.g. the entire government is global), you're fucked.
...and you're living in a dream world if you think any government has to play by any rules. If you study history, you'll find that all governments eventually reach a point where the only option is revolution, unless the civilization collapses or is conquered first.
I think you also don't seem to realize how much harder it's become to actually hide anywhere in the past 50 years.
Even if it were easier to hide, I don't want to have to become an outlaw for the sake of freedom in the first place.
Re:Recourse at law? (Score:3)
I'd like you to think very, very carefully about what it's being replaced with. I don't think a single monolithic totalitarian state (as far removed as possible from local interests, even) is such a good thing. Many of these international institutions are very far removed from any sort of direct democratic process.
(Where was the slot for e.g. "UN Representative" on your last ballot? [you do vote, right?])
I think that at best we're exchanging one load of crap for another, and possibly a worse load of crap at that.
Re:cybersquatting laws suck (Score:3)
a) "This is my domain name. There are many others like it but this one is mine." Assigning "Corinthians.com" to a soccer team over a site with religious content is just fucking stupid. By a show of hands, how many people think of a Brazilian Soccer team when I say "Corinthians" and how many people think about the Bible. It doesn't take a Catholic to realize that the Bible has been around for quite a while and it has been in the "public domain" so to speak for a good number of centuries.
b) For some reason, Brazilians get priority on a domain name with a TLD designation that has, historically, been based in the USA. There are lots of TLD's out there, I don't see any reason why the Brazilian Corinthiano's or whatever the hell they call themselves have priority on
c) if they're upset about the ugly background colour at corinthians.com, I'm sure he could be convinced to change it
yeah, I probably sound like an idiot after spouting off all that. Oh well. If you would like to share some insight, I have a thick skin, so feel free to debunk and tear down everything I said
Re:Phear Fonix... (Score:2)
Foreign to what? The .com domain is international and does not belong to the USA any more or less that it belongs to Brazil.
The fact that the .us domainis not used for anything meaningful does not make the .net, .org and .com domains any more american.
More Freaking TLDS, You Limey Bastards! (Score:2)
corinthians.religion
corinthians.sports
Of course, then what would have happened if there is a football team named Corinthians? Or if the Baptists and the Methodists wanted the same domain?
corinthians.baptists.religion
corinthians.soccer.sports
Then you might have a slight problem... What if baptists in the United Kingdom and baptists in America wanted to use Corinthians? And what if the same were true for the soccer team?
corinthians.baptists.religion.uk
corinthians.soccer.sports.br
Oh no! Now we forgot, what if there is a professional league and a grade-school league? Egads, and what about two baptist organizations wanting Corinthians in the same state and city?
corinthians.menudopublicschool.k-12.amateur.soccer .sports.brt eo.ca.us.baptists.religion
corinthians.three-square-church.firststreet.sanma
Wow! I guess more TLD's and implementation of third, fourth and umpteenth level domains really does solve the problem! And it's so simple!
---
seumas.com
Re:God grant me a coma! (Score:4)
Actually, it will (still) provide you with a list of 50,000 hits, all of them porn except for two, about half-way through, linking to identical archived newsgroup articles extolling the virtues of llama farming (for meat and wool) as a hot job for the New Economy.
--G
This is ridiculous! (Score:3)
The word Corinthians has been in general use for almost 1950 years, since Paul wrote the books. Also, Corinth is still a city in Turkey.
What authority does a WIPO judge have? I'm not too familiar with international IP treaties. Does the registrar have to comply with this?
Until you make them pay more, this is what you get (Score:5)
The "penalty" factor for these charges could go to ICANN, IETF or some other internet open standards group to use for R&D to help improve upon the internet as a whole.
Sure, like any other "system" (taxes, marriage, etc) there are people totally willing to cheat at it. ICANN should make the penalty for cheating at this one the IMMEDIATE suspension of and ultimately foreiture of ALL domains. Sure, there will be sleazeballs willing to cheat, but do you really think that major corporations, who are one of the major hoarders of domains, would risk losing their legit domains just to secretly own a thousand and one variants on their product names?
The fallacy that the solution is "more TLDs" is simply foolish. If a major corporation controls 1,000 domain names just to control them, who are you kidding that adding TLDs fixes this? That's only another $35k, and these clowns spend more than that on booze and hookers in a month without even the accounting department blinking an eye.
Until you start really making domain ownership a serious expense, all the new TLDs aren't worth a damn.
Re:Dispute Resolution Policy? (Score:3)
WTF? They already have a SIMPLE .BR TLD! (Score:5)
They already have http://www.corinthians.com.br/ [corinthians.com.br] in BRAZIL now they also want it under the infamous dotcom? Damn, why don't they go all the f**kin way and register under ALL the other TLD in ALL the other countries?
Sorry for the rant but I get p***ed off whenever brazilian companies register dotcoms "just to be cool"... Well they can just "tomar no cÃ"!
Phear Fonix... (Score:4)
"CORINTHIAO in Portuguese is pronounced as Corinthian in English. In fact, unless the English word itself is used, phonetics (because of the nasal pronunciation) and correct spelling require that the word Corianthiao is used in Portuguese. Thus, when comparing Corinthians with Corianthiao, the Panel concludes that the domain name at issue is phonetically nearly identical to the Complainants trademark CORINTHIAO."
I knew I hated phonics "
[SARCASM]Great... we really needed a precedent set for taking a way a properly used domain name because it is phonetically similar to the name of foreign entity...[/SARCASM]
Are the judges and lawmakers of this world *THAT* fucked up in the head?!?!?! Seriously? Some of the things they come up with continue to defy explaination. There *MUST* be some alien conspiracy causing people to make decisions like this, probably to make it easier to take us over when the main fleet gets here in a few decades.
In all seriousness though, I hope that this is overturned somehow...And while I realize that a: not everyone is religous ,and b: In some countries [ie Brazil] soccer *IS* a religion, does it make sense to anyone that the World Intellectual Property Organization [wipo.org] is basically saying that the word "Corinthians" is better well known as a soccer team than as a religious text. Ha!
In doing some reasearch, I found a site [wipo.int] with various domain name disputes. One dispute [that has been decided] jumped out at me. It seems that a fellow in Germany registered 'scientologie.org' and of course you-know-which-quasi-religious-entity had a hissy fit. In this case, even though that 'religious' entity had a trade mark on SCIENTOLOGIE, the judge dismissed the case...
It'd be nice if they were at least consistent, no?
Ender
PS. having looked further into it, there were [to me] good reasons for letting the guy keep the domain.
The people of the Earth do not deserve DNS (Score:5)
He's touching me!
Am not!
Recourse at law? (Score:3)
Re:Of course... (Score:3)
A country does gain something for coming up with things first.
The metric system is "System Internationale" -- a French name, because the French came up with it.
Stamps from England do not bear a country name anywhere on them. This is because the English invented postage.
The US does not need to force people into
(PS: I'm Canadian, so don't think I'm boosting my own country)
---
Property rights (Score:3)
Re:Of course... (Score:3)
www.mp3.com/Undocumented [mp3.com]
Of course... (Score:4)
Ain't that nice.
I hate the internet.
www.mp3.com/Undocumented [mp3.com]
Actually it works like this... (Score:4)
Seems the bible was a copyright violation too.
www.mp3.com/Undocumented [mp3.com]
What bugs me the most (Score:5)
People seem to have completely forgotten that there's more to the Internet than the Web.
-=-=-=-=-
Re:I see no problem with this (Score:3)
A case _could_ be made for both having an equal claim, at the most. In a case where two parties have an equal claim to a domain name, whoever registered it first assuming they did not resort to illegal practices to impede the others registration or speed theirs, gets it. Period.
Religion is totally irrelevant in this case. Its a matter of two groups, one with several centuries of use of a term, one with a few decades at best, both wanting it for a domain name. Gee guess whos the obvious winner?
should be .org anyways, but... (Score:5)
Lets say I go out and register for my family www.worroll.com. And then a company(that probably had rights to the name worroll for less time than my family has been in the USA) decides I'm infringing on their trademark? Who wins?
This is the same thing... A Christian person has as much right to use www.corinthians.com as anyone else, probably moreso due to the age of the context they were using it in. Did this soccer team get the rights to use the name before or after the Christians did? If they did, good call by the judge. Whats that you say? The bible is verifiably older than soccer? Oh well who cares theres more money in soccer. This makes me sick. It makes me scared to use my own name to register a domain. I know theres a magazine named George. I've seen the name Worroll used for a business at least once before, can't remember the business or even business type though... Does this mean that I can't use a name that I have every right to that has been traced back prior to 1900, and is certain to go farther back? This is ludicrous. Shoot the judge. Better yet, someone come up with a legitimate claim to his family name and register it.
.COM vs. .ORG is dumb, and makes no difference. (Score:4)
There have been many posts here, saying "If they'd been granted a .org, where they're supposed to go, and not a .com, where commercial entries are supposed to go..."...But they weren't! AND, the InterNIC didn't even attempt to segregate, ever, except for .edu and .gov (.mil is handled by someone else, AFAIK).
So please, get over what "should have" been done, because it wasn't done. Would it be better, YES, it would be a LOT better if Microsoft.com was Micro$haft Shitty Software Corp, and Microsoft.org was a non-profit organization, and Microsoft.net was for the Micro$haft *cough* Network, and the InterNIC enforced it, but they don't, they didn't, so now we have to live with it.
If living with it means that ANY complaint, no matter how obviously asinine and wrong, gets the judicial nod, I feel very sorry for all of us, because if it happens to him, what's to stop it from happening to YOU, or ME?
This is my
Re:Disney all over again? (Score:4)
From the Letter of ICANN to corinthian.com (Score:5)
2 Unto the church of The Internet which is at Corinthians.com, to them that are hosted in Jon Postel, called to be webmasters, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jon Postel our Founder, both their's and our's:
3 Bandwith be unto you, and low latency, from The Internet our Network, and from the Founder Jon Postel.
4 I thank The Internet always on your behalf, for the bandwith of The Internet which is given you by Jon Postel;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Postel was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Founder Jon Postel:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be well connected in the day of our Founder Jon Postel.
9 The Internet is connected, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Programmer Jon Postel our Founder.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Founder Jon Postel, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Slashdot, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of ICANN; and I of WIPO; and I of NSI; and I of Postel.
13 Is Postel divided? was ICANN slashdotted for you? or were ye logged on in the name of WIPO?
14 I thank The Internet that I logged on none of you, but r00t and Signal 11;
15 Lest any should say that I had logged on in mine own nick.
16 And I logged on also the household of Kiro5hin: besides, I know not whether I logged on any other.
17 For Postel sent me not to log on, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the DNS of Postel should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the DNS is to them that squat on domains as HTML; but unto us which are hosted it is the power of The Internet.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the troll of this website? hath not The Internet made unreachable the wisdom of this website?
21 For after that in the wisdom of The Internet the website by wisdom knew not The Internet, it pleased The Internet by the HTML of preaching to save them that code.
22 For the Users require a URL, and the Geeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Postel slashdotted, unto the Users an unreachable network, and unto the Geeks HTML;
24 But unto them which are called, both Users and Geeks, Postel the power of The Internet, and the wisdom of The Internet.
25 Because the HTML of The Internet is wiser than men; and the weakness of The Internet is stronger than men.
Here endeth the Lesson.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Why is religion stealing commercial space? (Score:3)
Just my view...
Last-Modified Dates on Pages (Score:4)
I'm not so sure if that's true. Take a look at the dates on the 5 pages--yeah, just 5. Real benefit to the community, huh?--that make up the site:
Location: http://www.corinthians.com/
Last Modified: Monday, June 26, 2000 1:59:50 PM GMT
Location: http://www.corinthians.com/2chapter1.htm
Last Modified: Monday, June 26, 2000 1:59:46 PM GMT
Location: http://www.corinthians.com/2chapter2.htm
Last Modified: Monday, June 26, 2000 1:59:46 PM GMT
Location: http://www.corinthians.com/2chapter5.htm
Last Modified: Monday, June 26, 2000 1:59:47 PM GMT
Location: http://www.corinthians.com/2chapter6.htm
Last Modified: Monday, June 26, 2000 1:59:48 PM GMT
--
Mixed Feelings (Score:5)
For starters, not very many of us Americans are familiar with soccer, so the Brazilian team Corinthians has little or no impact on us. But what if it were the Minnesota Vikings wanted to register vikings.com and found it was held by a Scandanavian man who wasn't doing anything with it? Would our viewpoint soften a little?
And if Sallen really wanted to display scriptures on his site, why not register corinthians.org instead? Was he similarly planning on registering .com domain names for the 65 other books of the Bible? Or was it just the Corinthian epistles that held such endearing value for him. (BTW, was that I Corinthians or II Corinthians?!) Sorry, JD: matthew.com, mark.com, luke.com and john.com are already taken.
Thirdly, there's this quote from the WIPO arbitrator, Roberto Bianchi:
Apparently, aside from its biblical posting following their acquiring notice of the dispute... Respondents have no made any other use of the domain name.
Now IMO this is a serious charge. If Sallen put up content on the site after being informed of the domain dispute, this is tantamount to deleting evidence after being informed that it's been subpoenad. It remains to be seen whether the above is true or not. In his post, Sallen doesn't dispute the charge.
It also remains to be seen which TLD's ICANN will adopt this week. This certainly would alleviate the way-too-broad .com problem that has everyone fighting for it. Perhaps a .team is in the cards.
--
Disney all over again? (Score:3)
Great precedent, I rub my hands!! (Score:3)
Hello, my name is señor Tilverd. I have registered my family name as trademark in Spain, so it is protected.
Now, I find someone has made a website called www.dilbert.com ! I am outraged !
Everybody knows that the Spanish speaking people pronounce the v as a b (and vice-versa) and the t as a d when followed by an i and that an unvoiced d at the end of a word is pronounced as a weak t...
Ergo, the word dilbert is phonetically identical to the pronunciation of my family name and my registered trademark.
So, I am giving a yankee judge a pig pak of tollars to award me the domain dilbert.com, as is it rightfully mine!!!
1 Corinthians 1: Paul, called to be... (Score:4)
Paul was called to be an apostle through the will of G-d, but Sosthenes our brother
had hitherto registered the name Paul in the
Roman registry of Licensed Apostles.
At the church of God which is at Corinth, there was great legal battle with much quoting of scripture, wherein Sosthenses was given the right to use "Paul" for purposes of religious marketing and branding. In a separate petition, Pilate's Goat Meat in Galilee was granted rights to the phrase "Jesus Christ." Their claim rested on the fact that they had registered the phrase several hours before "Jesus Christ" was listed on the birth certificate of the well-known Phrophet from the same region. Mr. Pilate, a shepard at the time, successfully proved that he had uttered the phrase when he witnessed the birth of a two-headed sheep on December 25th, 1 B.C.E.
As a result, in an official press statement the Son of God declared today that he has decided to name his new religion "The-Prophet-Formerly-Known-As-Jesus-Christ and-His-Apostle-Sosthenes -ity," in the hope that this name will allow him to avoid the costs of further legal representation. Stay tuned for follow-up reports.
Greece is the word (Score:4)
Did anyone ask them? If not, the WIPO is smoking crack.
sulli
Re:Why is religion stealing commercial space? (Score:3)